STOCKI INTERVIEWED BY LIVINGTHESOLUTION.COM
Tue 27 Apr 2004
Here is an interview Stocki did with Tom Gilbert, a writer, thinker and webservant for www.livingthesolution.com, a web site dedicated to finding real answers to real life challenges. That page will have a review of The Rock Cries Out very soon…
TOM: Why are there so few songs by Christian artists about issues like poverty, justice and helping others that are so predominant in New Testament scripture?
ST: Well that is a question that I myself would like to ask the contemporary music sub culture. It would seem to me that there are a couple of reasons. Mainstream evangelical Christianity has narrowed the concerns of the faith down to those issues that are to do with the soul’s destiny. In my book Walk On; The Spiritual Journey Of U2 I wrote about how modernity had effected evangelicalism coming as it did on the heels of the Reformation.
Modernity is about rational thought explained in scientific formulas and systems. Sadly evangelicalism swallowed the errors of this system hook, line and sinker. I personally find it utterly bizarre that at the same time as fighting tooth and nail against the idea of evolution Christians swallowed the entire spirit of the very thought form that came up with evolution!
Basically what I perceive we did was to start to use scientific ideas to explain God and what we then sadly did was that in defining the vast mystery of a God who is from everlasting to everlasting and fills the entire universe all at once we confined God and captured immortal spirit in mortal concepts.
That error has crept into our idea of the priorities of Christian living and Christian mission. The systematic thought process says the soul is more important than the body because the soul lives forever therefore there is no point in wasting time on the body and the social situations around us; we need simply to save souls. Indeed anyone who was involved in poverty and justice issues would have been for a long number of years labelled a liberal with a “social gospel”. It was the obvious outworking of the system BUT it was not Biblical or anything to do with what Jesus taught us in the Gospels. Somehow the systematic theology model has allowed us to ignore “thy kingdom come, thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven” and the challenging parable about the sheep and the goats where Jesus lays it out in frighteningly clear terms – if you are going about poverty and justice issues you go to haven and if you aren’t you are going to hell! Now don’t get me wrong I am Grace obsessive BUT this is tough teaching from Jesus and we need to hear it loud and clear. Whatever our systems conclude cannot over ride what Jesus commanded.
Coming out of such an imbalance, contemporary Christian music has two main agendas – worship and evangelism. At present the obsession is with worship. The lyrics are usually re-shuffled lines of the other million songs to a nice tune and the theological content is so narrow it is actually scary and for me as a pastor little or no use in the context of a teaching service. The other thing that needs prophetically said into such a situation where young people equate their hunger and enthusiasm for God in the number of hours they spend singing pop songs with lovey dovey lyrics pointing heavenward is that God through the prophet Amos told God’s people that He would not listen to their songs if they were not doing their bit about justice and righteousness. It is a glaring disobedience in my opinion.
What we therefore have is Christianity cutting off a huge chunk of its common humanity. The concerns we have that other human beings have are being dismissed for a distorted and limited view of the concerns at the heart of God. Fortunately for those looking for music that has a righteous anger against injustice then they can find it outside the “CCM” ghetto, in the real world of rock music. Of course Christians who have avoided the subculture or have been pushed out of it because of the topics of their songs are keeping a Christian witness on those issues even if they largely go unrecognised within the Church – U2, Vigilantes Of Love, Pedro The Lion, Welshman Martyn Joseph, Irishman Brian Houston and Canadian Bruce Cockburn being some such artists.
Yet the vast majority are not Christians. It was Peter Gabriel who brought apartheid in South Africa to my attention, Joni Mitchell who stirred me up about our treatment of the native American Indians, Bob Marley who tipped me off about third world poverty and an early Bob Dylan who helped Martin Luther King fight the race issue in America. Radiohead are probably most prophetic in their warning against technology and globalisation and controversially Ani DiFranco asked some serious questions about American and British response to 9/11. All of these are in the book – plug, plug!
So it is my hunch therefore that as a result of this neglect of Biblical issues in the world of contemporary Christian music that God may be by passing the Church and keeping His issues on the agenda of society through those who don’t even profess a faith in Christ.
TOM: Who do you see as the primary audience for this book?
ST: I think that this book is for the Church. I was aiming my lap top at a few targets when I started out. Obviously to simply untangle the music of a wide variety of artists with a Christian mind. I had been doing this on my radio show (www.bbc.co.uk/ni/religion/rhythmandsoul) for some time and many people had said how helpful my cultural analysis was. I was trying to open Christians up to the spiritual stimulation of these artists.
But, just as Walk On was about much more than U2 there were other underlying aims that were no less important, maybe more so. I wanted to take the U2 book forward a step. I think with Walk On we challenged Christians to engage with Christian truth in music that was not up front evangelical or worship. Suspicions over the authenticity of U2’s faith was hopefully clarified which allowed some to listen a little more safely. With The Rock Cries Out I wanted to take it beyond that and have them deal with “dangerous” music that did not have the Christian net below it. To listen for Christian truth in those we least expect to hear it from.
The other sub plot is that this is a book about many issues of Christian discipleship – race, poverty, justice. Even if you are not a fan of some of the artists music there are Christian themes that you can be challenged by in each chapter.
Whether those without a Christian faith will understand some of my reasoning is hard to say. I would like to think though that an atheist could pick it up and get a different perspective on each artists work and also be challenged by the issues which are not by any means the monopoly of Christians.
TOM: Besides the artists you write about in the book, who else is making similar music readers should explore?
ST: There are a host of other artists that I would love to put in another volume. Bob Geldof is a man who though foul mouthed has shown a compassion for the poor and marginalized that has been beyond the call of duty. That he has adopted the child that his ex-wife (Paula Yates) bore to the man who broke up their marriage (Michael Hutchence from INXS) is truly Hosea-like. Don Henley has moved some serious mileage from the hedonism of the The Eagles to making some sharp comment about industry and the environment. Steve Earle is saying some radical things that we need to listen to. Patti Smith is still making spiritually drenched music of a real cutting edge poetically and politically. I think Coldplay might come into their own over these next few years in their prophetic punch but not just yet.
With HIV/AIDS the greatest tragedy to befall humanity ever, everyone should go and buy the 46664 Concert. A gig put on in Cape Town, South Africa last November to launch a new charity set up by nelson Mandela to campaign against HIV/AIDS it is a great concert with prophetic songs and introductions and the DVD comes with amazing documentaries and information. Phenomenal!
I do think it is difficult to find an up-to-date artist who is saying anything prophetic and that is a concern. Yet it is not trendy in pop circles. Bono is always getting told to stop changing the world and try and make some music. How sad are we that making a three minute pop song is more important than campaigning for a better world.
TOM: Franciscan priest/writer/speaker Richard Rohr has lamented how people are often presented the truth in scripture prior to their being open to it because these people haven’t asked some of the big questions about life. He likens it to a second story building without a first level. Thoughts on how music you write about in this book helps build the first story.
ST: Wow! Heavy stuff. I am not sure about stories etc though I would like to delve a little deeper into Rohr’s theory. I do think that we have confused milk for meat and meat for milk. The email that sparked the U2 book was from a guy who came into my web page and lambasted U2 as either backsliden or very immature in faith. His judgement was that unless they were having altar calls at gigs they were denying their faith and immature at best.
I felt the total opposite. The work of U2 is an intelligently thought through look at faith and the world. They were asking the bigger questions. They had grown up and moved on. I am not sure that my analogy would be that of Rohr’s but I sympathize with the spirit of it. A photographer friend that I work with was just saying how his Church keeps doing the same introduction course every Sunday. Read, pray, give, witness. It then goes on repeat the next year. The world is asking bigger questions and God and the Bible have bigger answers. We rarely get that far! These artists do.
TOM: Why do you think God’s message speaks to us through people like the musicians/songwriters in your book who don’t necessarily profess faith in Christianity?
ST: They are still in touch with a humanity that Christians have sadly had taken away from them. We are so heavenly minded that we are no earthly use and they are still thinking earth!
TOM: Why is there such a resistance for many Christians to look outside of their religion to see God’s message?
ST: I think it all boils down to fear and safety. Christians are scared to engage in the real world. It is actually an issue of theology and faith. Do we really believe that God is stronger than the devil or do we not? If we don’t, then run and take cover. If we do then let us look him in the eye and change the world!
Our Christian subculture or ghetto is built around safety. We make the world safe by sanitizing and spiritualising everything. We have Christian radio, Christian pop stars - even worship pop stars now – Christian t-shirts, novels and key rings. I even had to advertise Christian Valentine Cards at an event I was speaking at! We are not encouraged out there where we belong. Gordon MacDonald termed it taming the ferret and Os Guinness talked about caging the Bengal tiger. It is sad and wrong and a travesty of truth! It shrinks our influence and stunts our growth.
There are also weird theological opinions that come from all this fear and I guess added to that the systematic nature of our belief system. I was on a web page discussion where someone was actually saying that God can only use the music of the regenerate. This is simply stupid never mind an error in Biblical understanding. The systematic conclusion of such a thought is that anything that is Biblical in the music of an artist that is not a Christian is therefore wrong! It is just nonsense. Never mind the fact that in the Bible God was speaking through all kinds of people and situations and asses (literally Balaam’s)! The other thing that makes this nonsense is simply the fact that many people who are not Christians are saying things that we as Christians believe in. You can tell I am frustrated and flabbergasted. Hence the book!
TOM: Any feedback from the artists featured in this book regarding your insights?
ST: None. I am sure they are totally unaware of my existence. I think some of them would get a kick out of it and some would be mesmerised. Sometimes I would love to know what they think and other times I am glad I don’t.
